Why are people voting BNP?

[michele cryer]

I don't really like giving the BNP my time or space on the web forum but feel it's necessary to stop and consider why people are really voting for them...

Mitch and I had a long discussion with a BNP supporter last night...he aired his views, we aired ours, quite amiably, if a little loudly on his part...he did lower his voice when asked to however.

His 'complaint' about where he lived, the Duke Bar area of Burnley, was aimed at the Asian youths, some of whom had apparently, verbally and physically 'abused' his, now deceased, wife and other members of his family.

His car had been taken for a 'joyride' and he complained about the incompetence of the police who found it for him but failed to search its interior and so didn't discover a bag of drugs in the glove compartment.

He claimed that some police officer had told him that HE would be arrested if he was found stealing somebody's car, but that 'others' in his community would not, a 'blind eye' would be turned.

The story wasn't very nice as you can see, and taken at face value anyone would say, 'well he does have a point...' however, by the end of the evening he agreed that most likely 90% (his figure) of Asians in the UK were good, civilised citizens, and that probably 5% weren't, just the same as in any other community we pointed out to him...however he felt he was living with the 5%.

The questions remain though...Who initialised the 'arguments' between his family and the Asians in his street? Who is keeping an eye out for these youths who are apparently openly dealing drugs outside people's homes? What ARE the police doing? They are answerable to these problems and they need to be taken to task about it.

There is obviously still a BIG problem in Burnley with the asian and white communities, stemming partly from the riots of 2001, and somebody needs to get into the communities and question each person about what THEY as an individual are willing to do to overcome it...to start viewing each other AS individuals instead of just one great body of whichever colour/creed they are...

Has anybody any ideas of how to get this going?

[Mitch]

Hey up,

I'm really glad you've opened this up sweets, as I can't think of any space in Burnley and Pendle, written or discussions, where what people are actually experiencing in this community are being aired and thrashed out openly, and until we really get it all up, really get at the crux of it, I don't think we'll be able to come together over the real issues here which is our forgotten community, which is being left to rot and people are starting to turn on each other (which is just what the government likes - keeps us down and divided, and attacking each other rather than them).

This 'ere bloke in the pub last night was a fascist through and through, and even though we picked every single one of his ridiculous fascist/racist arguments apart - all the usuals which we get all the time round here (and I'm sick to bloody death of this s h i t because it is mindless hate and divides us in our community) about immigrants flooding in, the hindus are ok/the muslems are trash - I read the papers he said, and the idiot believes everything he reads. He had a long list of his personal experiences in Duke Bar, and he said that Asian youths were abusing him and his family. Having listened to his rants for about 1/2 an hour I'd suggest he might be filtering the truth here considerably and he couldn't contain his foul fascism and racist views, as his voice rose a a bloody feavour pitch. I've been here before many times, and it's like bashing your head against a brick wall of hate - sick stuff it is and I'm glad the t w a t intends to move away from Burnley - good riddance!

And what the f u c k was he on about painting Nelson as some horrible place to live - all the usual sick c r a p coming out here - the man was away with the fairies. I'm telling you this, I love living here, I like all the people here. Most of the time people mix pretty well, and I mean mix. What's really going on is mixed relationships, mixed socialising, and working together against fascism. I'm getting to know quite a few Asian women now round here and let me tell you this they ain't taking no s h i t from Asian men, as well as fascists.

I've been involved in a few community campaigns in the area now, and occasionally racism rears it's ugly head, and when it does it divides and the campaign falls apart. It's a sickness we've got to be rid of, and we've been here many times in history round these 'ere parts. A start to combating it has to be speaking out like this, trying to open up what's really going on, not some do-gooding Liberal version. The truth is that we're all in it together in this community - rotton mindless unstable jobs with low pay, domestic violence and drugs skyrocketing round here, people cracking up with the pressure and huge mental health problems, and housing falling apart. Fascism and hate keeps our attention diverted from attacking the government who have left communities like ours to rot, and fascism serves the government well in this respect.

I won't tolerate racism and fascism whether it comes from mindless t w a t s like that bloke in the pub last night, or people in campaigns or people I've worked with and known who jump on the fascist bandwagon. I wouldn't tolerate it either from the other side - anyone can hold racist views. I've never had any experience of racism against me from the Asian community - we're all British wotever that bloody means, and this is our community together. That's my attitude, so I've never received anything but friendliness - if I went in with hate then I'd most probably get it back! I'm well dubious about stories from fascist white men especially -there's the old chesnut which some white men like to reel out round here about Asian men calling their wives or girlfriends 'this and that'!! and all the rest. I've never experienced anything like that from the Asian community, and I think most of these stories are just fuelled by hate. Who the hell do they think they are using women as tools in their twisted arguments to spread hate.

You opening this up Michele is a good start to being rid of this hate once and for all, and focussing on the real
s h i t that's coming down on all of us in this community.

[michele cryer]

Thank you Mitch, I suppose I could be called naive for trying to reason with the bloke last night...But that's just me thru and thru, keep on trying till the bitter end! At least we didn't all end up in a heap on the pub floor...lol.

You're very brave you know, when you speak up to these people, I come across like the 'born again christian...hippy chick...peace and love man!' and all that s h i t!! They must be laughing their heads off at me, but I don't care...if I put just a jot of doubt into his mind about what's really the matter within the communities then I consider it a job well done...and hopefully if we could achieve this with everybody out there we could really start to make changes!

[Mitch]

michele said:

Thank you Mitch, I suppose I could be called naive for trying to reason with the bloke last night...But that's just me thru and thru, keep on trying till the bitter end! At least we didn't all end up in a heap on the pub floor...lol.

You're very brave you know, when you speak up to these people, I come across like the 'born again christian...hippy chick...peace and love man!' and all that s h i t!! They must be laughing their heads off at me, but I don't care...if I put just a jot of doubt into his mind about what's really the matter within the communities then I consider it a job well done...and hopefully if we could achieve this with everybody out there we could really start to make changes!

Blisterin Barnicles, titter - we make a good team, that is the rub, wot wot. Your arguments last night were cool, calm and thorough and if anyone is gonna turn facists and racists around in these 'ere parts it's you.

Intelligent and calm you are, the best negotiator I know.

[michele cryer]

Thanks again Mitch! ;D

[Francis Duckett]

Because politics failed them. Politics always have failed them, in that the politicians, Labour ,Conservative and Liberal have never come up with the goods as far as we are concerned and have totally failed to listen even to the complaints from working class people. No one trusts the politicians of either Left or Right, they are seen to be milking the system. The papers are full of it. The trouble is that at election times the Press Lords manipulate the news to get the politicians re-elected. Where should people go? To go and vote for a party that is seen to be 'working class,' and is ridiculed by their opponets is an act of bravado as well as hope. We should notice that in spite of intense ridicule and enormous costs being spent, by the Left, the Fascists have not done badly in this town in just five years. Why?
Because the Labour Party has not yet even begun to listen to the wails of working people, never mind acting to repair the damage of past years. The BNP has more or less kept its vote up.The fascists have learnt some lessons. They work, they visit, they leaflet, to show interest in the voters these days is to be different and it pays off for the BNP. Look around, where are the councillors and the activists? Where are the trade unionists? These people years ago would have been causing ripples within the social democratic system, seeking redress to grievances ,.Where are they now?Whilst a lot of the supporters of the BNP are just ordinary citizens looking for an outlet for their frustrations the party in itsef has a doctrine that threatens the working class with a terrible future.But that is only spread slowly and quietly to the chosen few and hopefully they in turn will pass the bigotry and hate to others. Even so we have to remember that the seeds are being planted by Social Democracy which doesn't hesitate to abandon the very people who look to it for help and sustanence. At the moment this is where we should apply our efforts.

[michele cryer]

Thanks for that Francis...so are we gonna be the ones brave enough to approach the public and the police in that part of Burnley, and to try to improve relationships?

[Francis Duckett]

Michele.

As I see it Anarchism is a way of life where people ,collectively, govern themselves by means of organisations such as Community Councils (Soviets)and Workers Councils. Life and the mechanics of living have to be run and organised by the people who live in a particular area. Then the Councils will federate regionally and nationally, and hopefully, vertically and horizontally.
People have to get used to the idea that there are no easy options. If you don't use it, you lose it. When my mam used that phrase to my brother Tom, I'm not sure just what she meant, but it applies to our use or misuse of our freedom or rights. We are not politicians in the accepted sense, we are working class people with ideas and our job, as I see it, is to put the case. To join with other like minded people to educate ourselves and anyone interested in the idea and indeed to learn from others.It's a two way job. We have to expose and oppose the state and its workings. We have to analyse the system as we see it. We have to put an alternative forward. Not as blueprints, but as guidelines, these will be adjusted as experience shows the needs. Nothing is sacred. The state is the enemy, it has its servants and hirelings working 24hrs a day.We work for the cause in our resting time a mere three or four hours out of 24.In the 70s and 80s we did approach the community with some success chiefly through our anti-fascist activities. We then found ourselves being attacked by the "leaders" of the Asian Community as trouble makers who were jepardising the leaders' position with the local and national authorities.
WE have in other words to define , who and what we are, what we want and suggest , and then decide how we are going to achieve our aims. We are not an alternative leadership. The way we work should be open and frank. As the regicide Harrison said, "If it were done, it were better done in the light."

[Tom Duckett]

Why are people voting BNP?.

Further to the last three posts and to support them read the Guardian, Friday May 20th.

"THE LONG MARCH AGAINST THE BNP." Jon Cruddas, MP.

Page 25. which supports the ideas put forward by this forum.

Always remeber we said it first.

[Mitch]

www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1488214,00.html

Here's a link to this article which is excellent, and a bit from it below.

"Political debate is carried out by rich, educated elites who do not live in communities changing dramatically through this process of immigration. The most wretched element of the debate is the way these elites and their cohorts in the press ramp up tensions in the communities that are actively attempting to deal with the whole process.

At the same time, these very communities are the most ill equipped to deal with the changes because they are the poorest and have the most limited opportunities for economic and social mobility. The mixture of class, poverty and race, together with changes in the housing and labour markets and the demonisation of the migrant, creates a perfect storm for the BNP.

Yet it also creates the context for all that is great in the human condition to step forward. Despite conditions that help the BNP - and a national debate that panders to xenophobic politics - the local working classes are resisting the obvious far-right responses.

In Dagenham, as in similar communities across the country, a new popular front politics is developing as anti-fascists, church groups, local union branches, and voluntary and political groups come together to confront the threat. New alliances are being formed; old structures are being revitalised. A new, assertive, labour-movement politics is being fashioned."

Jon Cruddas is the Labour MP for Dagenham and a former Downing Street adviser

[octoberlost]

The Guardian article in question is pretty naff. Popular fronts, ie. those political unions consisting of diverse class and political elements have been done to death and are always a burden. Middle class people, humanists of every strip will never be fully capable of challenging fascists, only working class people can do that, for the obvious reason, its the working class who have the most to lose out of fascism. Look at AFA and Anftifa on that score. A clear opposition to the status quo, relying on your own means and having no faith in the state are probably good starting points.

On the question of why the BNP are doing so well, I think it isnt quite as rosy as Mitch proclaims, and racism clearly cuts both ways, (not to mention inane political correctness) and we would do very well not to assume every BNP voter is intentionally racist and actually do our best to engage with the f u c k e r s.

I recently learnt my brother was jumped by a gang of asians, and Ive had to have some nasty arguements with him. Its made all the worse because, the area we live in, the schools he went to, the place he works as no asian presence at all. So these k n o b s, have completely warped his perception, needless to say I catch the f u c k e r s, I wont hesitate to break their legs. And the same should be said for all victims of racism.

Now the crux of the problem for me is two fold,

1) the abondonment of the white working class. I mean this in the sense that, political correctness doesnt cater for whites, therefore racism is always potrayed as white vs black, and that a significant layer of blacks m/c types are able use racism as a career, via either the misname 'community leader' or some bollocks organisation like the CRE.
Also I tie in two this the problem that whites arent an homogenous block which political parties can appeal to. So its much easier to win the muslim vote, than say any significant vote from the white community.

2) backward elements in ethnic communities not being fully challenged. This is both political correctness amoungst whites, but also inactivity, atomisation amoungst say asians. We know there are no go areas for asians, but for f u c k sake I wouldnt walk through Nelson or Brierfield at night. When the BNP cause bother, you can almost always guarrante a response within the and from the white community, but can the same be said from asians?
Ive seen pro Taliban demos, heard of asian girls being circumcised , blatant attacks on whites for dating asian girls, the list could go on....but the question is, where the f**k are these 'moderate asians' we are always hearing about?

The above could be more coherent, but I generally feel it to be correct, at the end of the day racism cant challenge racism, and we need to get our act together or we go backward but that starts with getting our head around the bollocks that is the current situation.

[Seumas Mhor]

Octoberlost is wrong to give a blanket condemnation of the Guardian article by Cruddas. It is fairly naff but it says one thing that we should recognise clearly ,Cruddas lays the blame for the BNP on the Labour Government. He goes on to say,"Much of the community feels disenfranchised by New Labour". Who knows it better than Burnley Anarchists . It is a message that anarchists should spread, as Comrade Duckett said, in this thread earlier. Popular Fronts, Octoberlost says....."are a burden." They are, but we must be clear that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Politics are going through a phase.
The Conservative Party is on a slippery slope. This alone should give us pause for thought. Could the rise of the BNP be a planned alternative by the state? Look at the pre war German example.Again someone pointed out the rise of Militant in the 79/80 period. Anarchism at this moment cannot stand alone,it isn't strong enough and its performance since the collapse of the DAM has been weak. While "frontism" is out we should realise that we will need support from people outside our movement and while we are in contact with these like minded souls our politics should be clear , this is a major way of spreading our case. Putting our heads beneath the sand will cost us a great deal more than we bargained for. Octoberlost's policy reminds me of the SWP's attitude of opportunism mixed with a purist base. A dogs dinner of a policy.We have to be aware that the Asian or Black Communities are no more than communities in the thrall of a great cultural change, not only this but they suffer from the neglect of the Establishment along with clumsy attempts to buy at a very cheap rate the Communities compliance to Government politics and policy. Working Class Unite and Fight, even if they are Trots or Labourites.

[Seumas Mhor]

KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

TEXT

WE CANNOT BEAT THE BNP IF THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT AND THE BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT TOGETHER, AID AND ABET THEM . WE WOULD BE WORKING AND FIGHTING ON TWO FRONTS.

[Mitch]

Guest-Seumas said:

We have to be aware that the Asian or Black Communities are no more than communities in the thrall of a great cultural change, not only this but they suffer from the neglect of the Establishment along with clumsy attempts to buy at a very cheap rate the Communities compliance to Government politics and policy. Working Class Unite and Fight, even if they are Trots or Labourites.

Are you thinking about the local situation here. ie. New Labour's influx of funding into Burnley particularly to induce compliance with Government policy?

I also agree that where the Cruddas article is strong is in it's outline of the complicity of the main political parties to the rise of the BNP.

On Lost's comments - "On the question of why the BNP are doing so well, I think it isnt quite as rosy as Mitch proclaims, and racism clearly cuts both ways, (not to mention inane political correctness) and we would do very well not to assume every BNP voter is intentionally racist and actually do our best to engage with the f u c k e r s."

This was an outline of my own experience, I don't speak for others, they speak for themselves and I hope they do on this forum. Needless to say I've plenty of stories of racism the other way, and I certainly wouldn't tolerate that either. I have heard some particularly horrendous stories around reactions from some in the Asian Community, particularly Asian men, who have reacted with racist abuse and views to mixed relationships, calling Asian women foul names if seen walking around with white males and this sort of scenario which I think is absolutely disgusting, and if it came under my nose I'd certainly have something to say about it. I ain't saying it's rosy, but I live here and that is my experience, and I stand by the fact that what you throw out, you often get back. I don't see anyone as any better than myself, but if anyone throws s h i t my way, well I'm going to get prickly.

I think it's very important to challenge racism and fascism, whoever the perpetrator, when it comes your way.

What is clear from many conversations I have had is that there is a perception with many in the working class white community up here that the Police have their hands tied when complaints are made, and that there is an inbalance in 'fairness' between treatment of youth offenders in the Asian community as compared to white offenders. ie. the police are influenced by political correctness, and don't follow up complaints, or say there is nothing they can do.

This was one of the comments made by the fascist in the pub last week. I heard the same arguments from someone who was a staunch supporter of Harry Brooks in Burnley recently. Harry Brooks, like the BNP, is a racist opportunist exploiting such fears and perceptions. These perceptions need breaking down, and the facts clearly presented, and this is where I see the complicity of the major political parties, on both a local and national level. They paint pictures of situations which just aren't happening on the ground. ie. they're detached from the tensions and people's real experience on the ground, as are many in the Liberal elite (made up of both asians and whites in are community interested in maintaining hierarchy with them at the top). New Labour particularly wouldn't want to analyse and get at the facts of this situation because it would directly point to the effects of their policies agrivating the situation, policies inducing effects like casual/unstable jobs, poor housing, hopelessness and drugs and mental health issues, all of which result in some people taking the lazy way out and blaming the Asian community for all the ills.

I engage with the 'f u c k e r s' as Lost so delicately puts it, all the time, and I get my head round the 'bollocks' of the current situation, and many of the arguments around drugs and the hammering of this community I've presented many times, in Burnley workplaces and in pubs and social places, to argue people out of racist/fascist mindsets. Sometimes it's a brick wall, sometimes it isn't, but I certainly agree that you should try and always present the alternatives, not ignore it.

[michele cryer]

Just a short reply from me on this one...it's a bit difficult to take in all the posts well with Children's TV playing in the background!

Anyway, I agree with everyone who says we should be reaching into these communities, hearing the people's stories and working WITH them, NOT on behalf of them, to try to change attitudes. Fred, I hope you are not losing hope in the ability of the anarchists to work towards this aim? I would like to believe that we can still challenge, but perhaps this time we need to approach those Asian leaders who we upset before, and let them see that we are not trying to make even more trouble for their community, but that we are striving to pull their community and the white community together as much as possible.

Thanks for the article Mitch, much appreciated. So when are we going to start planning to meet these people and work together?

[Mitch]

michele said:

Just a short reply from me on this one...it's a bit difficult to take in all the posts well with Children's TV playing in the background!

Anyway, I agree with everyone who says we should be reaching into these communities, hearing the people's stories and working WITH them, NOT on behalf of them, to try to change attitudes. Fred, I hope you are not losing hope in the ability of the anarchists to work towards this aim? I would like to believe that we can still challenge, but perhaps this time we need to approach those Asian leaders who we upset before, and let them see that we are not trying to make even more trouble for their community, but that we are striving to pull their community and the white community together as much as possible.

Thanks for the article Mitch, much appreciated. So when are we going to start planning to meet these people and work together?

Hey up sweets, hurray she's back. just a quick one 'ere as headless has been round and I haven't got any work done.

www.enrager.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5267&sid=5700e0d4cc0fc2c4df2a2475f51e6e01

Check out Libcom/your thread on why people voting BNP - getting a lot of interest, and lots of good advice and help there.

If ya get time, put ya two penneth in - you started something really cool here.

(message from gonzo to pushka - keep yaself on ice luv, I'll be round again soon - titter).

[Seumas Mhor]

This is the question we should be asking? The idea that we as anarchists can lock ourselves away from reality is a non starter. Talk of a United Front is defeatist and dangerous. Apart from the right,i.e. Cruddas;s article last Saturday, (Guardian.) there's no demand for one. But what do people see as a United Font? What would be its purpose? Who would be united and what for?
In the event it usually means the liberal and the left joining together on a broad platform to return a 'socialist', or 'left ' Government. Obviously we cannot support an idea of this nature. History tells us that when this type of action does take place it usally fails to fulfill the hopes and aspirations of the working class in general and the anarchists in particular. We need only to look at Madeiro in Mexico, or Blum in pre war France and the Spanish debacle in the Civil war. We do however have to live in a real world, the pressures and responsibilities rest upon us as well as anyone else. We have families and friends to whom we are responsible. So, we have to look carefully at what we do.

The first thing to note is that the fascist vote has risen in the last few years in spite of credible efforts by the centre left, and some unions to report the horrors of fascist doctrine.

The second thing is to realise the paucity of centre left thought on the matter. Neither Centre Left or the Union Left (Trade Councils etc.) have a clear policy towards the burgeoning far right, unless its name calling and pointing out the sexual peccadilloes of the right wingers. Usually the left and the T.Us, end up with making an appeal for our vote to return a Labour Government or Council. Ignoring the point that the BNP, is the offspring of Establishment ,(Labour and Tory,) neglect. It's all been said before in our columns, by different people. Now, there seems to be a divergence and an idea is developing that anarchists and their friends should isolate themselves from the common struggle against fascists. To do this is foolish to say the least, an act of idiocy. We have to join with anyone of a like mind to fight against the common enemy.We have to put aside our distaste at some of their political ideas,i.e. Trots and Lab Left positions. We have to work to defeat a very frightening enemy. To do this we have to concentrate on our own abilities to define our case then to study ways and means to put it forward. Definitely we need to challenge the theories put about by Labour and the BNP about apportioning blame. neither should we see the Asian community as a community of saints.They are a group of ordinary people under vaery great pressure.

(To see a similar idea, study the case of the arab population of Jerusalem and their response to Israeli attitudes.)

Here,they are a minority in a very tight knit Island and under social, religious and political,pressure from the European establishment to conform to European attitudes and outlook. This is inspite of the fact that European attitudes don't live up to expectationsfor ourselves. In their own community they have pressures from right wing politicians and clerics to conform to asian customs and outlooks that are fast disappearing from 'homelands' long since left behind. Notice that the anti-fascist activities speed up in the election period and after the shouting and the stamping the al whole mess is allowed to die down. This gives us some idea of the urgency of the matter as far as the establishment is concerned. The Fascists are people who take Labour Votes. We have to change this perception and we have to educate our friends that the vote is no saviour for the working class.